[Head, meet wall]
dear everyone, this goes beyond religion. shouldn’t religion be a seperation of church and state? isn’t that what this county was based on? most of you for the gay rights bill are bashing the christians on this page, and most of you who are christian are bashing the gay community bcause of religious beliefs. if you want to make this fair, don’t call it marriage. marriage is traditionally a religious entity. call it a civil union.
StrawArgumentMaker: a compromise can be found anywhere.
MKP: Except for the fact that some gay people are religious and some religious people are gay. Equal means equal.
StrawArgumentMaker: not everyone is always going to be happy. the reality of it is we all have to live in this world god created. its their choice. let them do what they want. however dont ask to cll it a religous thing… make it a civil thing. theres no use starting a war over it, because nothing you say or do is going to change their mind .
i grew up in the church. i believe in god, i believe being gay is unnatural however i know many gay people and i love every single one of them. god didn’t tell us to start a war over it. in this life there is always going to have to be compromise whether we agree with it or not. so as long as its not being recogni-ed as a religous act i don’t understand what the big deal is
MKP: You can’t love someone and believe that what they are is unnatural.
StrawArgumentMaker: sure you can. how dare you tell me who i can and can’t love.what they do in the privacy of their home is their business, but i can love who they are. i may not like who my friend dates.. but does that mean i don’t love her??? Thats total bologna. people like you put up walls. i don’t understand why in this day and age everyone has to be all “if you don’t think like me you’re not my friend’ its absurd.
MKP: Well, you’re not my friend, but my larger point is that this country isn’t run on YOUR religious beliefs. The majority of New Yorkers believe I should be allowed to marry a man or a woman – God doesn’t vote in Republican primaries either.
Voice of Reason: Why should the LGBT community not be allowed to call themselves ‘married’? Civil unions are not the same as marriage and do not allow for all the same rights and protections without additional hassle such as needing a power of atty to obtain healthcare information for your partner.
StrawArgumentMaker: didn’t i state the sides of both of the arguments here? not once did i mention how my god was going ro condemn you. abd all i was saying for you to tell me who i do and don’t love based on what i think is absurd.
MKP: For you to tell me who I can and cannot marry based on what you think is equally absurd.
StrawArgumentMaker: because marriage is usually rexogni-ed as a religious entity. if lGbt citi-ens want to be married then they will have to force potentially a pastor or religious leader into doing something their religious beliefs do not support. its not fair to that pastor. civil union would avoid that problem all together.
MKP: Did interracial couples force religious leaders to marry them when miscegenation was illegal? Why on earth would I want a religious leader who thought I was unnatural to preside over my marriage? There are religious leaders who are gay and who are eager to help members of their community get married.
StrawArgumentMaker: i’m not saying you can’t be with them. personally i don’t care. but whats the difference with a civil union. just don’t call it marriage. BAM makes everyone happy. but its got to be all or nothing right?
MKP: What if I told you that you could choose a civil union or nothing? Would you be happy with that?
StrawArgumentMaker: i also see your point mkp. but like someone previously said there are gay people who are also religious. LOOK all i’m saying is to look at both sides of the picture. NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO BE COMPLETELY HAPPY. there is a compromise that needs to be had. there is no use in sitting here calling each other names or condeming each other to whatever is going on. but both sides want either all or none. you have to meet in the middle.
yah sure. i don’t need other people to recogni-e i’m happy. i know i’m happy. i can live a life in a civil union wit my significant other. why do i care if eveyone else sees it? as long as i’m happy and no one is botherign me who cares
MKP: ….I was the one who said gay people are also religious. And meeting in the middle to me means minding your own business and not exerting your personal religious conviction over the civil rights of other equally valuable human beings.
StrawArgumentMaker: okay!!! well then you understand the conflict.
‘NotherVoiceofReason: sorry Straw, you have no clue what you are talking about. There are gay and lesbian pastors out there or are you so closed minded to understand that one? I am not a lesbian and I know this so that cannot be your excuse.
MKP: Nope, I don’t. I believe in God, and I believe I am entitled to the same rights as every other American. There is no conflict.
StrawArgumentMaker: so if a pastor wants to have a civil union ceremony for you then fine!!! but making it a religious thing would be possibly having pastors who don’t believe in it have to marry them. people would cry hte crime. and while it isn’t a hate crime, and simply sticking to their religious beliefs it could change everything for them.
and while all of you are so busy defending yourself not once have i told you you were immoral, bad, going to hell, that our nation was going to be turned into sodom.. i just said think about both sides of the argument. you LGBT want tolerance.. well have a little tolerance yourself. and christians screaming blasphemy do wht your god tells you to do and love, not hate…. its both sides of the argument
MKP: Engaged couples have conversations with the people they want to officiate over their ceremonies! There’s not a lottery assignment system! There is literally no way that someone who doesn’t want to perform a gay ceremony would wind up performing one because no gay couple is going to ask a homophobic clergy person to preside over it!
StrawArgumentMaker: you’re missing the point. if a gay RELIGIOUS couple wanted to be married in a church.. that doesn’t support gay beliefs. that is what i’ talking about
i don’t care what you do quite honestly. but if it has the potentiol down the road to force someone to put their beliefs aside thats what i’m worried about. listen to me I DON’T CARE IF YOURE GAY I DON’T CARE DO WHAT YOU WANT. but in the future if it affects the lives of other people…. thats wht i’m worried about.
and all i’m saying. is calling it a civil union would cause those problems to subside…. thts all i’m saying. i could live a happy life in a civil union. as long as i was happy who cares
MKP: Nobody is going to ask to be married someplace that doesn’t want them! This is a total straw man argument, and you can hide behind “If it affects the lives of other people” all you want, but you should know that not being allowed to get married and have all the legal privilege and protections under the law that marriage entails is affecting actual real people right this second (not hypothetical future homophobic pastors)
StrawArgumentMaker: how is it affecting you if no one is harassing you? seriously. if you’re in a healthy relationship who cares. if you can have a civil union saying you’re going to spend the rest of your life with the other person then whats the difference? i’m not hiding behind anything. you keep forgetting i could care less if youre gay. i could care less if you spend the rest of your life with another gay person. I DON’T CARE BE GAY AND HAPPY AND MERRY. like i said before i have so many gay friends. as long as you have the rights to visit each other in the hospital and spend the rest of your life by the persons side why do you care? why does it matter? love is not something you should have to proclaim to the rest of the world. if you want to have a party to declare your love nd call it a wedding go ahead!!! no one is stopping you. but i know i lvoe the person i’m with. and if i couldn’t get married to them i’d find another way to let them know i wanted to spend forever with them. i wouldn’t start arguments about it. i would be happy just because i found the person i love.
MKP: I hope you appreciate that privilege, because there are only 5 states in the country where I can sit back and decide for myself whether I want to live with my partner, marry them or have a civil union. You have that choice anywhere you go. If I wanted to marry a female partner I would have to cross state lines, and that is unjust and unfair.
[ETA extra awesome (and to fix crappy formatting)
StrawArgumentMaker: listen. i appreciate that i can get married. i really do. but that day, that certificate isn’t wht the rest of your life is suppose to be defined for. that day is just a small little part. its the rest of your life, spending the rest of your time with that person. thats whats important. i really do appreciate the privelage but what i’m saying whts important to me is not the marriage certificate, its what it represents. and if you can have that love without the bond of marriage, without saying ‘ugh i guess i sid i do now i’m stuck with her for the rest of your life” then thats even more special and more power to ya. all i’m saying is there is no one is going to give in. one group is not going ot say “okay gays can be married, and gays aren’t going to sya ya know what i don’t really want to be with the person i love for the rest of my life.’ you have to meet in the middle somewhere
and to everyone who thinks i’m nuts for all of this. i only put this here.. because i know i’m not going to change the world with a facebook post. i know i’m not going to automatically create an alliance. thtas just stupid and wishful thinking.
MKP: That one group that you think will never “give in” and say gays can get married? That group is now the minority. And we live in a democracy. So they’re going to lose. How can you possibly expect to create an alliance when you still fundamentally believe that gay people are unnatural? I want to have an alliance with you about as much as I’d want to be married by the Pope.
StrawArgumentMaker: you are so hard headed. i see both sides of the argument. i go to a school of the arts.. i am surrounded by a gay community. i love all of them. i have tolerance for all of them. i have never once told them they were wrong or bad people. to me it is unnatural because its not what nature intended. and you can’t argue that with me. natures purpose is to procreate. the end. love wasn’t in natures agenda.. it just kind of happened. but i wouldn’t want an alliance with you either miss. not becuse you’re gay, because as i’ve already stated i love my gay friends. but because you are stubborn.
MKP: You don’t get points for human decency just because you graciously refrained from telling your dear gay friends that they aren’t exactly as
God nature intended. Good thing none of your gay friends are stubborn. Nature doesn’t have intentions! There is documented homosexuality in animals! Pot calling the kettle hardheaded.
StrawArgumentMaker: also my friends know i don’t completely agree with being gay. they have tolerance for my opinions just as i have tolerance for theirs. except how do we know animals are doing it for love? or simply because they just want something to screw? we don’t.
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I DON’T CARE BE HAPPY AND MERRY AND GAY is my new mantra for life.
And how DO we know animals are doing it for love?!?!?!